Just over two months after taking over the management of the Museum of Contemporary Art of the University of São Paulo (MAC USP) for a four-year term, José Lira (director) and Esther Hamburguer (vice-director) make it clear that they intend to continue the work built over the last few years by the management of Ana Magalhães and Marta Bogéa (read more here). Lira emphasizes that, in fact, it is about understanding management as a continuation of an even older work of “institutional and academic construction” of this São Paulo museum that has one of the most important collections of modern and contemporary art in the country – with more than 10 thousand works.
At the same time, it is clear that every new management brings its own ideas and deals with new realities, whether in the structure of the museum (which moved from Cidade Universitária to Ibirapuera in 2012), in the work dynamics and, especially, in the ways of updating its discourses and curatorial lines, “in light of the transformations that society and the contemporary mentality are imposing”, says Lira. To talk about the plans and visions of the new management, arte!brasileiros spoke with Lira and Hamburger, who spoke about these and other topics.
The main concept guiding the duo is what they call the College of Arts, a project to transform MAC USP into an increasingly transdisciplinary museum that engages with the most diverse departments of the university and with organizations and actors from different areas outside it. The areas of expertise of Lira, who came from the School of Architecture and Urbanism (FAU), and Esther, from the School of Communications and Arts (ECA) – more specifically the audiovisual area – reinforce this desire.
The College of Arts is also a way to deal with a complex world in crisis, and with contemporary artistic production that reflects this context. “We have an environmental crisis, a political crisis, a cultural crisis, and the world is at war. (…) So I think that the arts and human sciences are at the heart of the challenges that the world faces. And MAC has the potential to be an incredible laboratory,” says Esther.
Another important area of work highlighted by Lira will be the management of a “heritage science center,” a sophisticated laboratory for preserving and restoring works of art, with cutting-edge technology, which is being installed in the museum. The facility, also linked to academic research, should not only care for the museum’s collection, but also train professionals who will work at MAC and other institutions.
Created in 1963, when the collection of the former Museum of Modern Art of São Paulo (MAM SP) was transferred to the care of USP, initially formed from donations by the couple Ciccillo Matarazzo and Yolanda Penteado, MAC USP currently presents both exhibitions assembled from its collection (such as Fractured times e Open collection) as well as an exhibition in partnership with the Terra Foundation for American Art (USA), one by the artist Luiz Sacilotto and a large installation by Anna Bella Geiger (circumambulation). In addition, the museum receives the 38th Panorama of Brazilian Art, traditionally held at the Museum of Modern Art of São Paulo (MAM SP), which is currently undergoing renovation.
Read the full interview below.
arte!brasileiros – José and Esther, you took over as director of MAC USP less than three months ago. The proposal is not to break with or change direction in relation to the previous management, but there are some new features, such as what you call the College of Arts. Can we start by talking a little about this transition in management and, based on that, the main areas of work that you propose from now on?
Jose Lira – Yes, you are right. I think our proposal is not a rupture or a detour. A museum of this importance, of this dimension as MAC USP, involves the work of generations, both in institutional construction and in academic construction – after all, it is a university art museum. So we understand that it is about contributing to this process in an institution that, since it was created in 1963, has undergone very significant changes, but within the process of consolidating this art museum within USP. So, in 1963, the collection had a certain identity that was given by Ciccillo Matarazzo, very marked on the one hand by the revision of modernism and the updating of Brazilian modernism at the international level. And, as important and unique as the management of MAM was, by figures like Lourival Gomes Machado back then, this identity of the collection was very decisive for what the museum would become.
Furthermore, Matarazzo, who was involved with the Fundação Bienal, also brought the collection closer to this other institution around the 1950s. The works awarded during the Bienal enriched and updated this collection. And with the arrival at USP, Walter Zanini, who was the first director of MAC for about 15 years, made a great effort to establish a place for the museum within the university. Zanini was a professor at the School of Communication and Arts (ECA) and had previously been a professor of Philosophy, and was undoubtedly a very important figure in introducing research within the institution. Research that he developed, but also that he fostered around the collection. Research that was academic, but also aesthetic.
Finally, there are several revisions of this long history of MAC USP available. Several directors have taken care to retell this history, to establish these major time frames. But the museum has recently undergone two very significant transformations, one in the 21st century. And the current MAC is the result of these transformations. One is the autonomy of the museum within the university statute, about 15 years ago, when it became equivalent to a teaching unit. The museum already had a body of researchers, including on staff, but it did not yet have a full role within the university through its own teaching careers, this figure of the museum's professor. The emergence of the four statutory museums of USP, including MAC, allowed it to mesh with the undergraduate, graduate, extension and research policies that are routine for any teaching unit. This gave the museum a new autonomy and complexity.
The second change was the transfer to the Ibirapuera headquarters, a move that has been underway since 2012 and was practically completed under the previous administration. The collection is almost entirely housed here at the headquarters, which houses the laboratories, reserves, academic areas, programming areas, and a space for exhibiting the collection and curatorial work that is ten times larger than the previous space. In short, what I wanted to say with this retrospective is that despite the unique contributions of one specific administration or another – MAC has had great directors and, of course, some changes in direction, some emphases – the institutional construction of a museum of this scale is not a quick task, nor is it the work of a single generation. So it is not about breaking with our past, but about developing, deepening, and building on previous achievements to make new ones.
Let us then move on to the achievements you intend to leave behind.
Jose Lira – I would say that there are two important things, besides continuity, that perhaps were not so clearly present in previous programs. On the one hand, the presence of Esther, coming from the audiovisual field, and mine, coming from architecture and urban planning, also has the meaning of pointing to a greater dialogue between the visual arts and these fields. A dialogue and a greater presence of audiovisual, architecture, urban planning and design within the museum's programming, curatorships and even its collection. The MAC already has some collections and items, some audiovisual and design funds, even some minimal architecture, but this can certainly be increased. Any major contemporary art museum has its departments and curators for cinema, film, architecture and design.
And does the idea of the College of Arts have anything to do with this multidisciplinarity? In an interview with Jornal da USP, you spoke of MAC USP as “a neutral place, which does not belong to any specific discipline, but has an inherent transdisciplinary interest.” So the idea is that the museum can be a hub for initiatives, both from different departments at USP and from projects outside of it?
Esther Hamburger – Yes, MAC has been working on a very transdisciplinary line, including in exhibitions. If you look at the exhibition Graphic experiments, from the Ivani and Jorge Yunes Collection, which explores the relationships between this collection that is entering the museum and the existing collection, it crosses disciplinary boundaries. Because it is a collection of graphic drawings. So in the exhibition you have magazine covers by Di Cavalcanti placed in dialogue with other works of his that are in the MAC collection, for example. In short, the museum already has a curatorial concept that seeks to go beyond disciplinary boundaries.
For my part, I have always had a very transdisciplinary background. And I think we live in particularly challenging times, right? I mean, we have a technical revolution happening and the hard sciences and universities have a lot to do with these changes. And, at the same time, we have an environmental crisis, a political crisis, a cultural crisis. So, the world is at war. And there is nothing hotter, let's say, than war, global warming... So I think that the arts and human sciences are at the heart of the challenges the world faces, although it is not always recognized as such, and MAC USP has the potential to be an incredible laboratory. In fact, it already is, so it is always a matter of improving it, of opening it up more to colleagues from other USP units, so that students from the most diverse areas can have contact with the collection, have the opportunity to take courses, workshops, etc.
Currently, the predominance of students in MAC USP courses is from ECA (a USP unit that includes the Visual Arts department) or is it varied?
Esther Hamburger – It is quite diverse, because the museum offers open courses. I even think that this is the model that the university should encourage, that the curricula be more open so that students can choose. I think we really need this and the students want it. In this sense, the MAC has a very interesting model. It does not have its own undergraduate course, it offers optional courses open to several courses. So there are students from ECA (communications and arts), FAU (architecture and urban planning), FFLCH (humanities courses) and I believe we should have students from other units, even POLI (engineering).
Jose Lira – MAC has this potential for bringing together disciplines and collaborations from very different areas of knowledge, as Esther just mentioned. This potential is in the museum's very DNA. It is not a teaching and research unit, nor does it have a specific undergraduate course, but it contributes, collaborates, through its faculty, with undergraduate education in the form of elective courses, accessible to students from any area.
The reality we see today, not only at USP, but at universities and in higher education in general, is one of great atomization, right? Of schools, areas of knowledge and disciplines. The march of specialization, which at one point seemed inevitable, is now demanding more plural attitudes, training or interventions, more open from the point of view of the discipline, more hybrid even. I would even say more eclectic. That scientific, disciplinary and epistemological orthodoxy has been in crisis for some time now. It is a crisis of education in general, of universities, it is a crisis of Western culture, of this model of civilization and science as well, of technology, of development, which has generated these environmental, humanitarian and political problems. So more transdisciplinary approaches are undoubtedly very welcome.
Now, on the other hand, I wouldn’t say that this atomization has turned its back on the arts. On the contrary, we often see, spread throughout the university, professors, students, research groups and laboratories that, from within their disciplines – be it history, architecture, journalism, cinema, psychology, sociology or anthropology – are working with the arts. But within their niches. Which is a paradox, because often these groups, these careers that pursued reflection on art, are dissidents within their areas of knowledge, challenging the very boundaries of fields that have their hard objects, that have their classical lines of research and that rarely involve the arts. And today, we have a huge universe of people working at USP, in all areas of knowledge, with a volume of accumulated work that doesn’t always reach outside these domes.
Now, leaving the university walls a little, I would like to ask about the dialogue with possible partner institutions, with the artistic community, with other projects outside USP. This work is already being done by MAC, but what is your idea in this regard?
Jose Lira – It is important to emphasize this, because it is not simply a matter of bringing together USP in an eccentric locus, so to speak. It is also about attracting and dialoguing with artistic production spread throughout society, including outside São Paulo. So we are in a structuring phase, starting a little with this extensionist, cultural dynamic that the museum already has, to gradually establish a different modus operandi. Considering these events, these courses, these workshops that often took place within the museum in a more relaxed manner, now within a common project of publicizing the artistic debate, the artistic production. So, we are trying to make the initiatives that are already happening converge towards this project.
Another thing is to make use of these more immediate resources, which are from our colleagues, our students, our postgraduate programs, who are invited to collaborate in this process of expanding the artistic debate, not only interdisciplinary, but also interinstitutional and with civil society, with art producers, people who are thinking about art and other loci of knowledge other than the university.
Esther Hamburger – Just to give you an example, the museum traditionally organizes activities with the Instituto Moreira Salles, with whom we have an agreement. I am also on a committee at FAPESP that is organizing an interdisciplinary school, and it will bring Takumã Kuikuro, an indigenous filmmaker, to participate in an activity in December. And then, shortly after, he will give a workshop at the IMS with the support of MAC. In other words, we want to bring together the efforts that are already underway. Another example is that we will have a workshop with Rita Duffy, an Irish artist who is coming to São Paulo at the invitation of the Chair of Irish Studios at USP, funded by the Irish consulate. And she will have an exhibition at Maria Antônia and a workshop here at the museum.
In short, I think that all of this is part of the museum's natural calling, which already exists, and which is now being developed in the events that the museum's faculty and technical staff encourage – and these are teams of impressive quality, very well-trained people, with incredible dedication to the museum, something that stands out. And these are teams that are used to promoting things, they are focused on this, and we intend to increase this cultural melting pot.
And just to conclude, the museum also participates in two postgraduate programs that are interdisciplinary and inter-unit. You can see that the vocation is there. One is in museology, which is based at the Museum of Archaeology and Ethnology (MAE-USP) and the other is the program in History and Aesthetics of Art.
We have already talked about the relationship between MAC and the university, and a little about the relationship with outside institutions. Now I would like to know more about the general public, so to speak (there were 410 visitors to the museum in 2023). So, how do you intend to work on this dialogue with society as a whole, to attract people, talk to them, and intensify this relationship?
Jose Lira – We recently saw a mapping of this and we can see how the arrival of visitors to Ibirapuera represented a huge increase in the number of visitors in 2013. The departure from the university city to here represented a significant shift in the monthly flow of visitors. When the museum first opened here, visitors were around 10 to 12 per month. This has been growing since then, reaching almost 40. Excluding the years of the pandemic, of course. And we need to study better who this audience is, how they are visiting the museum, and what their interests are.
Finally, there is a segment that is the public of the museum itself, and another segment that is the public of the building, including the panoramic terrace that we have up there. Remember that this is a listed building, designed by Oscar Niemeyer, an accessible public space, unlike in other times. And it has become a tourist landmark, especially with the opening of the terrace to public visitation. So there is also a lay audience, who are not regulars in the art scene, who are often coming to an exhibition for the first time. There are even people who sometimes don't even go in, they go to see the view and stay outside. So we need to map, get to know this audience better and work with them, in short, train them. Do some training work. And I think that one of the impacts that we expect from the College of Arts is not simply dynamism, but also the expansion of the audience, always with qualification.
Another aspect that I think is fundamental to this conversation is talking about the MAC USP collection, of more than 10 thousand works, and the work that has been done with it – which was even awarded by the Brazilian Association of Art Critics (ABCA) in 2023. In this sense, since you took over, two exhibitions have opened: Open collection e Graphic experiments: Donation from the Ivani and Jorge Yunes Collection. One presents a collection recently donated to the museum and the other discusses the idea of technical reserve, also showing works that have never been exhibited before. Could you talk about this ongoing work of activating the MAC's vast collection?
The collection is a historical collection. Despite being a museum of contemporary art, it already has an identity. Many people come to the MAC to see Modigliani, Boccioni, Tarsila do Amaral, a specific Anitta Malfatti, etc. And this is an asset of the museum. Now, it is a museum of contemporary art and, since its creation, based on this precious historical nucleus, it has been redefining itself, updating itself. And I have the impression that the work of the Fractured Times or Common place, which were two exhibitions from the previous administration, was a very fine work of curatorial intervention in the collection. When we received the ABCA award, it was not just the collection, but the work around it. So, for example, these exhibitions put the masterpieces, let's say, the great pieces, back in dialogue with lesser-known productions in drawing. Different times, with different techniques, with different genres, different materials.
And this intersection occurred based on curatorial cuts that are highly relevant in the present. So, these are issues that have been emerging that were not the same as those that were present in the 1960s, 1980s, or 2000s, but that are emerging in society and culture in a latent way... Issues of violence, sexuality, body, race, class, environmental crisis, in short, issues that are permeating the public debate were absorbed here.
Esther Hamburger – And there is always the idea of relating the collection to contemporary things and other historical things as well. In other words, the collection is like a living archive.
Jose Lira – And there is another very important thing: the museum was recently selected to host a multi-user facility directly linked to the collection. This multi-user facility, EMU, was approved by FAPESP in the form of a heritage science center. A laboratory, a facility linked to the preservation, conservation, restoration of works of art, physical-chemical research, research into the state of conservation, the original composition, the layers of degradation or the creation of the artwork… It is being installed right now here at the museum. The installation is not complete, the equipment is still arriving, but it is incredible.
Esther Hamburger – Yes, because it is something that a university museum does and that a non-university museum would hardly be able to do in the same way. Because we are also a research unit. Our technical and teaching staff are researchers. And research is understood in a broad sense, from the technical research necessary for the preservation and restoration of works, which is what this laboratory intends to do. It is headed by Professor Ana Magalhães and Professor Márcia Rizzuto, who is a full professor at the Physics Institute and has a subsidiary affiliation here at MAC. This is the seed of an incredible College of Arts.
I may be wrong, but I think something like this is rare, or even non-existent, in museums in Brazil…
Esther Hamburger – It will be the first of its kind in Brazil. And it is a center that involves partnerships with other museums and other universities, and it intends to operate as a network. So, with this, MAC is valuing its collection, as well as researching restoration and preservation techniques, in addition to training people. Both people linked to other museums and postgraduate students...
Jose Lira – It's a very sophisticated piece of equipment that's coming. From electron microscopy, state-of-the-art radiography, large-scale scanning, three-dimensional parts, mapping, scanners and so on.
Do you think this could even help more people want to donate works or collections to the museum?
Esther Hamburger – Yes, because that's it, it's knowing that the collection is being well cared for. And exhibited! So the collection is being cared for in an innovative way and exhibited in an innovative way. For example, the donation of the Yunes collection arrived and there is already an exhibition, which is a kind of celebration. That's also a differentiator. And so MAC USP shows how this new material relates to what you have. Sometimes, with things that you don't have, but that other people have and that we can go after. Graphic Experiments, in this sense, works with the museum's collection and other collections as well.
Jose Lira – What you said is important, about encouraging donations. Because not every museum in Brazil offers an artist, their heirs, or a collector the conditions for preserving, studying, perpetuating, and conserving works of art that MAC does.
Finally, I would like to talk a little about MAC USP's connection with contemporary political debates, especially in relation to some issues that are now unavoidable in the cultural and artistic world, such as violence against minorities, social inequality, racism, gender issues, environmental destruction, and so on... Are these issues a focus for this new management of MAC?
Esther Hamburger – These are contemporary issues, these are the issues that artists are raising. I myself, in my work as a researcher, deal with the various ways in which audiovisual captures and expresses inequalities and sometimes transforms them. Anyway, I think we are very focused on this, our agenda is permeated by these issues and contemporary art is dealing with this, is facing the challenges. So, for example, one of the installations in Fractured Times It is a garden located in the museum's outdoor area and planted with plants typical of Ibirapuera – after all, the museum is an extension of Ibirapuera Park, which was crossed by the city via expressways. And we think very carefully about this outdoor area of the museum, to work on these environmental issues. If we think about the environmental issue in a broad way, it includes humans in the environment, with their bodies and discrimination, so we can think of this concept of environment as a concept that encompasses all these tensions. The title of the long-term exhibition itself, Fractured Times, already signals attention to the ways in which social and political tensions are expressed in art. There is no art outside of these implications, because it is like the entire environment, it is the fruit of these tensions.
Jose Lira – I would like to add that I would like to draw attention to the transformation that the university as a whole, and not just MAC, is undergoing, also due to the changes that society and the contemporary mentality are imposing. Today, universities are places where issues of inequality, access to higher education, access to culture, access to work, and professional opportunities are very present. So MAC has been trying to keep up with this reflection and also adjust its institutional policies to this dimension. I would like to highlight, for example, how the indigenous arts agenda is now present within the museum's agenda. Professor Fernanda Pitta has been a great supporter and scholar, within the faculty, regarding the challenges that these cultural, artistic, and philosophical productions of these Amerindian peoples pose to institutions such as “museums,” “art,” “visual art,” and “fine arts.” In short, a whole set of political challenges are being brought about by this deepening of the dialogue with indigenous cultures.
Within the MAC's deliberative council, for example, we currently have an indigenous artist [Tamikuã Txihi Gonçalves Rocha], from the Pataxó people, who lives in one of the villages on the Jaraguá reservation, who often expresses her strangeness regarding our protocols, our conduct, our routines. Things that are also traditions, and that we don't always see from the perspective of another radical, that of an indigenous migrant, deterritorialized, constantly confronting exclusion in her body, in her existence, in her mentality, in her spirituality, in her environment. So, these issues are also being highly valued, and they have shown interest to our students and our faculty, and the museum has sought to strengthen them.
Finally, you are now receiving the 38th Panorama of Brazilian Art (link Edu material), traditionally held at the MAM, which is undergoing renovations this year. The MAC is providing the exhibition space, but I would like to know if the museum was also involved in the exhibition in other ways?
Jose Lira – Well, when we were approached by MAM, due to the renovation of the Ibirapuera marquee and the temporary relocation of the museum, precisely at this important moment in their artistic calendar, which is the Panorama, obviously the welcome was immediate. It was discussed, it was reflected upon, an agreement was reached between the two institutions, because it is not simply a matter of giving up the space. It is not that simple. It is a sensitive space, because it involves an infrastructure that is not the same as what they are used to, it involves the cohabitation of teams of employees, it involves specific demands, and it often involves the same audience. The MAM audience is neighbors of the MAC audience, one is also interested in the other's exhibitions, so there is a whole concern to build a daily harmony between these dimensions of conservation, infrastructure, and daily work.
Esther Hamburger – They are sister museums and the idea is that they can work together.
